I can't say how much I appreciate your takes. I've never subscribed to a substack, but you just earned it. Thanks for your incredible attention to details and willingness to question everything, Jason. It's a breath of fresh air. Hopefully I'll catch you at SBL.
I'm curious how John's quoting Zechariah 12:10 at the start, may relate to this. Especially considering Zechariah 14 has its own Jerusalem destruction story... Look forward to hearing more!
A couple of resources from people who have also chased up this thread (hopefully this helps):
- Peter Leithart (as has already been mentioned), who heads up the Theopolis Institute and has written a two-part commentary series on the Book of Revelation. The Theopolis website also has a host of articles on the topic.
- James B Jordan, who used to run the Biblical Horizons group (that was very closely tied with Theopolis) has his "The Vindication of Jesus Chirst: a Brief Reader's Guide to Revelation" and a ~120-part lecture series on Revelation that chases these thoughts and Old Testament connections
Thank you so much for bringing attention to this take! Peter Leithart's commentary on Revelation convinced me of this exact reading, but the "double for her sins" was one that I missed! The woman being "in the wilderness," and the connection between Rev 17:6 and 18:24 with Matt. 23:35 sealed it for me. Understanding Revelation to be primarily (though not exclusively) about Jerusalem helps connect the book more firmly to the rest of the NT.
I think the hestiancy with accepting this (plain) reading, is due to its unfortunate association with "full preterist" interpretations. But, if Revelation is the "climax of biblical prophecy" (Baukham) and the canonical capstone, it makes sense that the majority of the book is describing the "days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written" (Luke 21:22). Babylon is *first* Jerusalem, but also any nation that follows in her footsteps.
This take, along with your work on Rom 9-11 in Paul and the Rez of Israel were absolute game changers for my eschatology. Again, thank you so much!
I was just going to mention Peter Leithart's commentary! I believe James B Jordan in his Revelation writings has also made mention (or, at least, it's a fairly common view from the people involved with Theopolis and who used to be involved with Biblical Horizons)
Excellent post. While I’ve known of the general argument for the identification of Babylon as Jerusalem from preterist readings, I don’t recall seeing it argued from the points of the Mother as Jerusalem (instead of Israel) and the double judgment.
Your post also brings to mind this Biblical Mind podcast where Brent Strawn argues for a connection between Solomon and the Mark (1 Kings 10:14, 2 Chronicles 9:13). I can’t recall if he also connected Solomon’s luxuries with the luxury described in Revelation 18, but it may also make sense.
Would this mean “the other children” of Revelation 13 the dragon pursues are the 144,000?
And how do you think this connects to the beloved city of Revelation 20? Would it depend on how one thinks the battle of Revelation 19 does or does not connect/coincide with the fall of Babylon and Gog and Magog?
I suppose you may be saving this for the eventual article though.
Excellent treatment. And could we say the warning is that the Bride of Christ can become the whore of Babylon if it "rides the beast" of political power instead of kingdom light, leaven and salt?
The leaven, however, doesn't sound like the good thing in His words. It is anticipating the corruption that was to be expected to appear among those proclaiming the Kingdom.
I agree with this. The parable of the leaven is usually misinterpreted as a positive thing, but I think it's more like the wheat and tares parable and refers to corruption coming into the kingdom.
This seems highly likely and would also suggest that some portions of the work were completed after the destruction of Jerusalem and the expulsion by Hadrian.
I was about to state the opposite: That it suggests it was written before Vespasian laid siege to Jerusalem. Just as the gospel was written before the destruction of the City, too. (In such reading, the sixth king would be Nero. Although in wider sense it is Rome, after Egypt, Assyria, Neo-Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece (Seleucid and Ptolemean) as the fallen five king(dom)s or empires.
Rome in its Cesarean cult would be major part of the Babylon, mother of harlots, that the author warns the seven ΕΚΚΛΕΣΙΑΙ about. Babylon is multifaceted and spans all over the earth since its "humble" beginnings in the early days of civilisation (Gen. 10 and 11): 'Come, let us make a name for ourselves!'
This was my chapter in Open Table! And yes, it was the Temple/Jerusalem (enmeshed in every broken "commerce" of every broken kingdom. Leithart was very helpful here for me. OTC had fun!
Great writeup there. I keep meaning to revisit some issues in revelation, including this one. Trying to think who else holds to Jerusalem as well. Leithart, Moloney, Caird...
Some others holding the Jerusalem hypothesis are Margaret Barker, David Chilton, J. Massyngberde Ford, Kenneth Gentry, Edmondo Lupieri, Bruce Malina, Rick Van de Water, Louis Painchaud, Robert A. Di Vito, Daniele Tripaldi, Iain Provan to name multiple I've found. It's still a minority, but growing.
I went through Revelation with our college students years ago and found this perspective persuasive based on Leithart’s commentary. The way you laid it out confirms it for me. However, I always struggled with the identity of the “rest of her offspring” in Revelation 12:17. If the woman/Israel flees to safety, who is this remnant that that the dragon pursues?
Revelation 12:17
[17] Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
I can't point you to any work but there is the motif throughout scripture of a faithful remnant of God's people (e.g., 1 Kings 19.18). A faithful remnant implies an unfaithful component (majority?). With Dr. Staples' interpretation, this motif holds true; the women's children through the Christ are the remnant (also paradoxically the restoration!) of Israel/Jerusalem.
Right. Something’s not connecting for me. Jerusalem flees into the wilderness, but her offspring remain and face the dragon. I assume those offspring are Jew/Gentile Christians. I’m stuck on the “rest of”, as in, does she have multiple sets of offspring?
Excellent work...especially the part about bearing YHWH's name ;)
Truly, this is a word for today, isn't it?!
Ooh, I meant to link your book on that phrase. Time to edit…
I can't say how much I appreciate your takes. I've never subscribed to a substack, but you just earned it. Thanks for your incredible attention to details and willingness to question everything, Jason. It's a breath of fresh air. Hopefully I'll catch you at SBL.
I'm curious how John's quoting Zechariah 12:10 at the start, may relate to this. Especially considering Zechariah 14 has its own Jerusalem destruction story... Look forward to hearing more!
A couple of resources from people who have also chased up this thread (hopefully this helps):
- Peter Leithart (as has already been mentioned), who heads up the Theopolis Institute and has written a two-part commentary series on the Book of Revelation. The Theopolis website also has a host of articles on the topic.
- James B Jordan, who used to run the Biblical Horizons group (that was very closely tied with Theopolis) has his "The Vindication of Jesus Chirst: a Brief Reader's Guide to Revelation" and a ~120-part lecture series on Revelation that chases these thoughts and Old Testament connections
- Warren Gage has a number of great resources on this. Here's a summary podcast: https://thatllpreachpodcast.podbean.com/e/unlocking-the-secrets-of-revelation-with-dr-warren-gage/. His work was turned into a book (https://www.drwarrengage.com/store/p/johns-gospel-neglected-key-to-the-book-of-revelation-dr-warren-gage#:~:text=Warren%20Gage's%20thesis%20that%20John,and%20help%20interpret%20one%20another) but I believe the original version of his thesis is available free online somewhere
- Alastair Robert's has also done a lot of very cool work on this in his substack and a recent course he taught on John and Revelation.
Thank you so much for bringing attention to this take! Peter Leithart's commentary on Revelation convinced me of this exact reading, but the "double for her sins" was one that I missed! The woman being "in the wilderness," and the connection between Rev 17:6 and 18:24 with Matt. 23:35 sealed it for me. Understanding Revelation to be primarily (though not exclusively) about Jerusalem helps connect the book more firmly to the rest of the NT.
I think the hestiancy with accepting this (plain) reading, is due to its unfortunate association with "full preterist" interpretations. But, if Revelation is the "climax of biblical prophecy" (Baukham) and the canonical capstone, it makes sense that the majority of the book is describing the "days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written" (Luke 21:22). Babylon is *first* Jerusalem, but also any nation that follows in her footsteps.
This take, along with your work on Rom 9-11 in Paul and the Rez of Israel were absolute game changers for my eschatology. Again, thank you so much!
I was just going to mention Peter Leithart's commentary! I believe James B Jordan in his Revelation writings has also made mention (or, at least, it's a fairly common view from the people involved with Theopolis and who used to be involved with Biblical Horizons)
Excellent post. While I’ve known of the general argument for the identification of Babylon as Jerusalem from preterist readings, I don’t recall seeing it argued from the points of the Mother as Jerusalem (instead of Israel) and the double judgment.
Your post also brings to mind this Biblical Mind podcast where Brent Strawn argues for a connection between Solomon and the Mark (1 Kings 10:14, 2 Chronicles 9:13). I can’t recall if he also connected Solomon’s luxuries with the luxury described in Revelation 18, but it may also make sense.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-biblical-mind/id1468537756?i=1000689645157
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/new-testament-studies/article/abs/solomon-and-666-revelation-1318/A6CEF70BFD261E6980C36E75B5001C3D
A couple questions:
Would this mean “the other children” of Revelation 13 the dragon pursues are the 144,000?
And how do you think this connects to the beloved city of Revelation 20? Would it depend on how one thinks the battle of Revelation 19 does or does not connect/coincide with the fall of Babylon and Gog and Magog?
I suppose you may be saving this for the eventual article though.
Excellent treatment. And could we say the warning is that the Bride of Christ can become the whore of Babylon if it "rides the beast" of political power instead of kingdom light, leaven and salt?
Yes, I think that's basically right.
That's certainly consistent with the idea that Humanity will rule over the animals of the cosmos, not by them (as idol worshippers are) (Psalm 8).
I do not think the whore riding the beast is about domination of humanity.
The leaven, however, doesn't sound like the good thing in His words. It is anticipating the corruption that was to be expected to appear among those proclaiming the Kingdom.
I agree with this. The parable of the leaven is usually misinterpreted as a positive thing, but I think it's more like the wheat and tares parable and refers to corruption coming into the kingdom.
Yes, that one should be so obvious. And there is this other hint (or riddle) he gave them:
about the fishermen's net.
This seems highly likely and would also suggest that some portions of the work were completed after the destruction of Jerusalem and the expulsion by Hadrian.
I was about to state the opposite: That it suggests it was written before Vespasian laid siege to Jerusalem. Just as the gospel was written before the destruction of the City, too. (In such reading, the sixth king would be Nero. Although in wider sense it is Rome, after Egypt, Assyria, Neo-Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece (Seleucid and Ptolemean) as the fallen five king(dom)s or empires.
Rome in its Cesarean cult would be major part of the Babylon, mother of harlots, that the author warns the seven ΕΚΚΛΕΣΙΑΙ about. Babylon is multifaceted and spans all over the earth since its "humble" beginnings in the early days of civilisation (Gen. 10 and 11): 'Come, let us make a name for ourselves!'
This was my chapter in Open Table! And yes, it was the Temple/Jerusalem (enmeshed in every broken "commerce" of every broken kingdom. Leithart was very helpful here for me. OTC had fun!
Interesting! But I don't know what Open Table is. I just did an Amazon search and didn't see a book by that name with a chapter on Revelation.
Great writeup there. I keep meaning to revisit some issues in revelation, including this one. Trying to think who else holds to Jerusalem as well. Leithart, Moloney, Caird...
Some others holding the Jerusalem hypothesis are Margaret Barker, David Chilton, J. Massyngberde Ford, Kenneth Gentry, Edmondo Lupieri, Bruce Malina, Rick Van de Water, Louis Painchaud, Robert A. Di Vito, Daniele Tripaldi, Iain Provan to name multiple I've found. It's still a minority, but growing.
I went through Revelation with our college students years ago and found this perspective persuasive based on Leithart’s commentary. The way you laid it out confirms it for me. However, I always struggled with the identity of the “rest of her offspring” in Revelation 12:17. If the woman/Israel flees to safety, who is this remnant that that the dragon pursues?
Revelation 12:17
[17] Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
I can't point you to any work but there is the motif throughout scripture of a faithful remnant of God's people (e.g., 1 Kings 19.18). A faithful remnant implies an unfaithful component (majority?). With Dr. Staples' interpretation, this motif holds true; the women's children through the Christ are the remnant (also paradoxically the restoration!) of Israel/Jerusalem.
Do you have a particular view on the “rest of her offspring?"
It seems to me that the passage answers that question rather directly: "those who keep the commands of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
Right. Something’s not connecting for me. Jerusalem flees into the wilderness, but her offspring remain and face the dragon. I assume those offspring are Jew/Gentile Christians. I’m stuck on the “rest of”, as in, does she have multiple sets of offspring?
The other children would probably be those associated with her who don’t follow Jesus.
Wonderful article..in spite of your caveat, I hope to read more from you on this :)
Love the article. I especially appreciated the explanation of paying double for her sins. Very helpful.
James Tabor was right in pointing out and at your sharp mind and your impressive abilities.
Excellently laid out. Thanks!
It's excellent. I haven't seen this view before. I also wanted to know how Israel(Rev 12 woman) became Jerusalem (Rev 17 woman).
Joined substack today to follow similar articles.